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 Post subject: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 7:05 am 
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Location: Alex Tan, Johor,Malaysia
I think my singleton 8 wks old Rottie puppy might have social and mental issues.The reason I say this is he keeps biting his hind legs aggressively while growling loudly as though he is fighting with another dog more than 10 times a day in his own enclosure, further more he is very stubborn and would not listen to simple command.If I put him on a leash to go out for walk, he would be very uncooperative by going to the directions he wants or just slump down on the ground. When playing with his mum (dam) he is the dominant one,aggressively biting and nipping the dam while going on top and making the humping motion.

Initially I thought that the puppy is very dominant and hard temperament,needs lots of time and patience to be taught obedience commands but the more I watch him the more reasons that I think he is psycho.When he was 6 weeks old ,nobody could touch him as he would turn and bite forcefully...my wife was bitten (full grip) a couple of times when she tried to hold and cuddle him. At least for now , he do not growl at me as he recognize me as the ALPHA in the family.

When I invoke his prey drive, he responded majestically with full grips bite on towels ignoring numerous taps of stick to the body.Even the sound of the whips has no effect on his concentration and gripping the prey.He loves this game immensely and proudly trods away with his trophy every time he wins and got hols of the prey.

Is this the normal behavior for a hard/temperament puppy or other wise ?? :(

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:26 am 
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Location: Alex Tan, Johor,Malaysia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB72WJdqEqg

here is a video clip of Axel's prey drive

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:40 am 
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Location: Andy Furman , New York
I'm no expert but the video looks like a normal puppy to me. If my pups didn't do that I think I would worry. If they are going after your wife that is something you have to teach a yound pup not to do. I lost for shirts and three pairs of pants up untill my pups were about 12 weeks old :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:10 am 
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Location: Alex Tan, Johor,Malaysia
I told my mrs that Axel don't like to touch with sudden moves, need to approach with a soft stance/manner.Any sudden touch on Axel will be responded with growls and bite. Any how I advise her not to touch or grab Axel unnecessarily to avoid unwarranted bites...she has had small puncture wounds on her arms and chest area before.

She kept telling me Axel is not normal, a normal puppy would not keep biting his own hind legs over and over again without any provocation. It doesn't make sense when Axel at times would yelps in pain but why would he do it over and over again if he knows it is painful. This is what worries me most...scared that the puppy is crazy and has the habit of biting anything or anyone without any sense or provocation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl6R9JupIXo

Has anyone experienced this type of puppy behaivor before, need sincere advise and inputs.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 11:27 am 
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Location: Andy Furman , New York
That was sincere advice. Maybe instead of trying to wind him up with that rag and stick you should spend your time trying to calm him down. When you have him under control work with that rag and stick. :) Just my opinion

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:03 pm 
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Location: Alex Tan, Johor,Malaysia
That was sincere advice. Maybe instead of trying to wind him up with that rag and stick you should spend your time trying to calm him down. When you have him under control work with that rag and stick
Sorry I do not mean to be impolite and I do appreciate your advise. :D

Maybe that might work....will try to use the treat/tit-bits methods and focus more on obedience commands for a week or 2 and see if there is any improvement to the hind leg biting problem.What concerns me is that I might be raising a terror or loaded gun that might go off suddenly in the future.I love this puppy pretty much as I had personally hand raised him since day 2,bottle fed him with puppy milk replacer once every 3 hours when the dam contracted Mastitis and on medication. I can"t described the bonding I have for this puppy but deep inside it felt just like my own flesh & blood.
Naturally I would want the best for this puppy and not to become a liability in the future.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 12:55 pm 
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alex,maybe somehow he gets something out of biting his legs.Like a lick Granduloma does.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 3:13 pm 
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For what it's worth, I have also known this to be a symptom of whip worms. Drontal Plus will rid your pup of them.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 8:27 pm 
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Location: Alex Tan, Johor,Malaysia
Axel has been dewormed twice, once each during the 5th and 8 weeks old,the latter one is with his 1st immunization jab. Whip worm ?? I'll check it out.thanks :D

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Sun Jul 10, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Location: Anne Coy, Oxford, CT
Have you had a stool sample tested for parasites? Worming a pup doesn't mean the pup is free from parasites...unfortunately :)

We see ALOT of puppies from a local pet store (UGH!) and they get wormed pretty much weekly, yet I would say that at least 90% test positive for parasites - most commonly Giardia, but also coccidia, roundworms and hookworms - how lovely that these puppies are also probably handled by alot of people....YUCK!

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 12:25 am 
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Location: Alex Tan, Johor,Malaysia
RottiMomCT wrote:
Have you had a stool sample tested for parasites? Worming a pup doesn't mean the pup is free from parasites...unfortunately :)


Yes,the vet check the fecal sample under the microscope and he did not say anything to me. he just advised me to take Axel out for more walks on rough surface as the hind legs are smaller than the front due to a lot of slips and falls on smooth marble surface in his enclosure.

I surf the net for Compulsive Canine Disorder (CCD) and come out with

A canine suffering from compulsive behavior might exhibit its plight by incessantly biting, chewing or licking itself--especially its flanks; constantly chasing its tail or chasing shadows; pacing; snapping at flies all the time and self-mutilation. Compulsive behavior is generally the result of the dog reacting to a stressful situation. In severe cases, however, the behavior is unstoppable; antidepressants and special training sometimes help control the dog's compulsions

Obsessive behaviours that are typical of this condition in dogs include the following:

Spinning in circles Tail chasing Snapping at the air Constant licking of various parts of the body Obsessively mouthing toys Freezing Incessant or rhythmic barking Self mutilation

Not all obsessive behaviours are easy to detect for example, a dog harmlessly chewing a toy for long peiods of time may seem normal enough and no cause for concern, however, the behaviour may have an underlying stress related cause.

Treatment for this condition should begin with a thorough examination of the dog, so as to rule out any possible medical cause. This type of examination is best carried out by a veternarian who specialises in diagnosing and treating this kind of behavioural problem, if possible. Once it has been established that OCD is the cause of the dogs obsessive behaviour, appropriate treatment can begin.

The usual method of treatment involves combining drug and behavioural therapy. The types of drugs used to treat Canine Compulsive Disorder, are similar to those used in the treatment of OCD in humans. Behavioural therapies include reward based training used to reinforce more desirable behaviours, desensitisation techniques designed to gradually decrease the the dogs state of arousal in stressful situations, and techniques that involve creating an alternative and stimulating routine for the dog to follow.

When taken beyond the basic "puppy discovers its tail" degree, tail chasing and/or biting is a displacement activity; the dog is experiencing some sort of conflict, and needs to find an outlet for that frustration. Extroverted dogs will displace via objects, people or other animals; introverted dogs turn to self-mutilation of one type or another. In GSDs, this tends to be tail-chasing/biting; in Dobes, it's usually flank-sucking, while Goldens and Labs seem to favor foreleg licking. Unfortunately, there's really no good 'solution' to this behavior. For some dogs, just increasing the amount of time the two of you are actually *doing* something may be enough to satisfy the conflict; agility or flyball training often provides a sufficient outlet for the excess energy for many of these dogs, too. With more hard-core cases, however, usually your options are limited to providing the dog with actual *work* for the better portion of the day (livestock herding, street work, etc.), medicating the dog with anti-psychosis medications, or physically preventing the dog from pursuing the activity (Bite-Not collar or other devices). The problem with the first option is you may have to give up your dog in order to provide that level of activity; with the second, the use of these medications in veterinary applications is still in its earliest stages, so choosing the appropriate drug can be hit or miss (since it still is such in human medicine!!), the meds may affect the dog's coordination and mental sharpness, and its too early to say whether there are long-term adverse effects from these pharmaceuticals. The last option, using physical restraint to prohibit the action, achieves its aim of stopping the mutilation, but the dog's conflict *will* surface in some other manner--perhaps its housebreaking will go to hell, or it will begin to destroy items in its surroundings; it may begin to regurgitate its food only to consume it again and again, it may begin to eat non-food items such as rocks, dirt, hair, paper, and so on(a habit known as pica)...frankly, I think using physical restraint devices for this type of chronic problem is cruel, and the dog would be better off being euthanized if this is what life has in store for it.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:25 am 
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Location: Gretchen Caldwell, Massachusetts
Perhaps video of the leg biting behavior would help. One of my first thoughts was structural issues and pain (puppies will bite at pain). However, seeing the movement in the two videos you posted, I'm not seeing any major movement issues.

I see a mid-level puppy in these videos, not a monster. I don't see redirection towards you, hear growling while on the toy, or anything else.

Your wife needs to develop a positive relationship with Axel. Stop feeding him from his bowl, but instead, have your wife feed him his meals from her hands. If he chooses to bite, the consequence is "no food right now." Into the crate (calmly on your part, no yelling or scolding) and wait 5min. Then bring him out and try again. He will quickly learn that his actions determine the outcome. If he wishes to eat, he must not bite. Very simple. After a few successful sessions of eating without biting, your wife should then have him start working for his food: sit, down, stand, go to crate/bed, stay in create/bed for a few seconds, or actively choose to stay there (vs. coming to the food).

A relationship with a dog should be built on respect and positive experience. Not based in fear, corrections, and "I am the boss." Who likes working for a person that is always saying "I am the boss" ??? You'd much prefer to work for someone who showed you respect and helped you achieve, instead of always saying "I am the boss!" (I personally don't beleive in all the alpha dog stuff).

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 9:27 am 
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Ask the vet to have the stool sample sent out to a lab versus checking in hospital.

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A Little Xtra Jolt O'Java RA, CGC (Jayda)

At the Bridge -
my heart dog, the one who started it all:
North East's Oxford Scholar CD, RN,CGC, TT (Ben) 4/16/99 - 6/20/11

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Ace Fighter Pilot (Baron) ~9/4/2001 - 11/23/11


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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 10:54 am 
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Location: Alex Tan, Johor,Malaysia
Ok will try to get a video done on the leg biting act.Will post it up asap when i got it. :)

Axel will growl and then bite if my wife or the dam chose to get close,touch and interrupt on what he is focusing.He hates being touch/stroke and carried-up in our arms.That he will squirm,grrrrrrrr and the bite if it's not me.
My mrs have decided not to get involved in the raising of Axel anymore after some serious discussions.She agreed that she could not get along and don't know how to get a positive relationship with Axel,further more she only comes back during weekend due to job commitments.It makes all even more difficult as she only have limited time spent with Axel. :(

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:13 am 
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You are allowing him to dictate behavior. "I bite, I don't have to deal with her anymore." That's completely unacceptable. You need to find a trainer who can be there watching behavior and coach both you and your wife on how to work through this. I understand she's not arround much. You are setting yourself up to have a dog who will at some point, as an adult, give your wife a very serious bite that could disfigure her, or worse. This dog could live 14yrs. It is completely unacceptable to me for your wife to live in fear of a dog in her household for 14yrs.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 1:40 pm 
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i had a pup do the same thing.He developed a lick grandulomia.It started with him biting himself,then licking his back legs raw until they bleed.You are right its like ocd.I had to bandage it and put the bite not collar on him.Give him lots of things to do to take his mind off of it.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2011 7:17 pm 
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Location: Sheila Innins, Sydney, Australia
Hi Alex,

I am not surprised your puppy is behaving like this. You said he is a singleton. It is very hard to raise a single puppy if the dam is a softie. Puppies need siblings to learn bite inhibition. If they bite their sibling too hard the other pup will walk away. They learn this around the 6 week mark. Your pup has missed out on this. If you can find some other puppies that he can play with and learn some manners. Or if you have another bitch that you could put him with that will not put up with his nonsense.

The advice given about feeding meals by hand from his bowl by your wife is excellent advice. Also teach him to drop and wait. Drop is a submissive command and is great control on your pup. So when he misbehaves make him drop. If he plays too aggressively walk away. Stop immediately all tugging games and you are the keeper of the toy not him.

Suggestion find yourself a a good dog trainer/behaviouralist. Also go on the web and find Dr. Ian Dunbar he has very good articles on puppy problems.

The answer is training. He is only a baby and he needs to learn boundaries.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 4:03 am 
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Gretchen Caldwell wrote:
You are allowing him to dictate behavior. "I bite, I don't have to deal with her anymore."

That is not what the situations seems to be like, I can be very very Firm and Hard but Consistent on the puppy,teaching him to play and obey MY Rules...but will it do the puppy any better long term. I was hoping that I could let Axel developed his hard and dominant temperament naturally and not be stunted by us humans who wants the pets to behave according to what and how we seems Fit. I really really see that Axel has some potential in protection work especially Schutzund which relatively new in my country.I wanted to nurture and channel his aggression into better protection bite work later.

Yes I did do some research on singleton puppy online,found that they tend to have social and mental issues very often,. I was prepared to deal with the issues and problems encountered during the time raising this puppy into adulthood,that is why right now I an exploring all avenues and ways how to deal with situations that I have had and will encountered in the future. I love this puppy very much but frankly I at times get frustrated when I see him misbehave very very badly. :(

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:39 am 
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You do realize that in a SchH trial, the dog must heel through a group of people, check in and let the judge see his tattoo (which involves a person leaning over him) and must also be able to pass a BH which usually involves a crowd of many people closing in around him, bumping him, etc. A dog who growls or shows ANY aggression will be dismissed and bad temperament noted in the scorebook. You will not HAVE a SchH dog if you raise an ill-mannered ass.

Creating a dog who is an uncontrolled twit b/c you are mistaking unsocialized and uncontrolled with "hard and dominant" is NOT what this breed needs. PLease. Do us all a favor and get the dog into class, take control and don't let him become yet another nasty Rottweiler who bites someone.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 6:42 am 
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shadow88dancer wrote:
I wanted to nurture and channel his aggression into better protection bite work later.


You are not understanding the sport, and you will make a dog who will never pass. Aggression is NOT what the sport, nor bitework is about.

Quote:
I love this puppy very much but frankly I at times get frustrated when I see him misbehave very very badly. :(

You are getting exactly what you are creating. YOu have no one to blame but yourself. You can not allow a puppy to be an ass, and then be upset when you don't like "who the ass is directing itself at."

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:17 am 
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Gretchen Caldwell wrote:
Creating a dog who is an uncontrolled twit b/c you are mistaking unsocialized and uncontrolled with "hard and dominant" is NOT what this breed needs. PLease. Do us all a favor and get the dog into class, take control and don't let him become yet another nasty Rottweiler who bites someone.


Lets not get into an argument that will continue on and on. I know that most of the people on this forum has loads of experience regarding the sport of Sch and raising Rotties, but I have confidence that I could train my puppy My WAY and will come up on top. In 4 months time when Axel is 6 months old,I will post up video of him heeling with his head up and some of the obedience routine plus tracking article also.I respect what experienced owners and trainer's opinion but I personally felt that you cant just apply a Formula of how to raise and train on every dog. :D

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2011 11:19 am 
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No, you can't apply a formula. I'll keep my years of training and trial experience to myself. Hope your wife doesn't get too badly bit.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2011 11:40 pm 
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"" she did not sound like and alpha at all... she was scared and worried.. this could be handled in small steps.. with mega reward.. nipping and biting on your child. A few of my buyers often call me about this.. They are still puppies and thats what they do.. you need to keep a close eye on them at that stage and let them know its not ok.. from the start.. at that age its easy to fix on a pet dog... a working dog is much harder. trying to keep the dog feeling like super dog and not breaking his spirit.. as a family dog they need to know there place in the pack.....[/quote]

Yes..... :D :D :D ...Now I can rest my case in peace knowing that there are many Rottie owner and trainers have diffrerent perspective and mentality on how to train and raise a working Rottie. Having years of experience raising and training dogs does not apply that your methods and mentality is always RIGHT. :oops: :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:04 am 
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shadow88dancer wrote:
Lets not get into an argument that will continue on and on. I know that most of the peo,ple on this forum has loads of experience regarding the sport of Sch and raising Rotties, but I have confidence that I could train my puppy My WAY and will come up on top. In 4 months time when Axel is 6 months old,I will post up video of him heeling with his head up and some of the obedience routine plus tracking article also.I respect what experienced owners and trainer's opinion but I personally felt that you cant just apply a Formula of how to raise and train on every dog. :D



Then why are you on here asking novice puppy training questions? No, there is no "formula", but all puppies need to learn how to behave, be socialized, and how to have bite inhibition with most people.

Encouraging a puppy to aggress and have no self control is, IMO, counter productive, and your wife is experiencing this.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 7:18 am 
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Make sure you send photos when you or your wife are wearing a 48 long. :?

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:11 am 
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Boomer wrote:
Make sure you send photos when you or your wife are wearing a 48 long. :?


What does that imply to ?? :mrgreen:

RedyreRotties wrote:
Then why are you on here asking novice puppy training questions? No, there is no "formula", but all puppies need to learn how to behave, be socialized, and how to have bite inhibition with most people.

Initially I asked if anyone has the experience of puppy biting it's hind leg and the cause of it.Regarding training and bite inhibition ,someone raised the issue not me... :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2011 11:53 am 
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i was wondering why suddenly the topic is getting touchy and nasty.....just asking for some answers and in return get bang left right inside out. I thought the sub-prime issue was over and Europe is facing one now with Italy and Spain heading into Greece directions. :o

This will be my last post on this topic case closed. Better ask the vets advise than some gun itchy slinging cowboys. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 4:51 am 
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The vet will likely tell you to get him castrated. I know of 2 breeder/owners who have reared singleton puppies.

One very unsuccessfully, the pup was put to sleep before he was 6 months old, he was VERY aggressive.

The other breeder was more aware of the problems associated with singletons and when I met him out for socialising at a show at 4 months old he was bang to rights, she had jumped on him from day one. he is about three now, mostly OK but has a few issues with other dogs.

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 Post subject: Re: 8 weeks Rottie keeps biting it's hind leg
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:28 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 24, 2007 2:20 pm
Posts: 1685
Location: Rebekah James, NC, USA
shadow88dancer wrote:
....Is this the normal behavior for a hard/temperament puppy or other wise ?? :(


Your words asking if this is normal.

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