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David,
Did your breeding go as well as you hoped? I wonder why more people haven't had any comments on this breeding. I see people breeding SHIT AKC dogs that nobody has ever heard of and they get a lot of people congradulating them and wishing them well. You have bred a bitch who went V2 at the Klubshow, TWICE, who is Schutzhund titled, is multi V1, Seigerin, to the nicest, most correct and well build Rottweiler of our time and not one person can wish you well....... I say screw them!

Gianna has already proven she is a great producer with her first litter and I personally can't wait to see how this litter does. I can't wait to see your puppies grow into adult dogs and no doubt, kick the ass of those breeders who have read this announcement and not even given you an un-sincere wish of luck and health for your puppies. Screw them! I wish you the very best with your litter and will follow their careers as they take to the field.

-Chris Amell

So, Chris, who are you talking about here?

Who are these SHIT AKC dogs that nobody has ever heard of?

(By the way, David, best of luck with your litter)

Well Rebekah, I don't see the need to point fingers. Sorry I have no intention of getting into a mud slinging match. I know these dogs have tails and therefore don't interest you but these are great dogs that have accomplished great things in there careers. This should be an incredible pairing that should produce winning dogs, why not let the guy know he has done a nice breeding?

You have already started the slinging when you made your comment about "SHIT AKC dogs that no one has heard of."

One of these days you will learn that whether someone has heard of a dog or not has no bearing on his quality or his genotype.

For the record, I am not against tails. I am FOR the breed standard which is in effect in the country in which I live. I have friends, close friends, who have imports with tails. It is a non issue.

I do find it interesting that you decided to pick a fight out of the blue with your rude derogatory blanket statements right after I announced a breeding of AKC dogs.

That says quite a lot about you as a person, I think, along with your cowardly reply.

My apologies for the crapping up of your breeding announcement, David. All good luck for a successful settling and a nice litter.

I really wasn't posting anything directed towards anyone. I am sorry if my not wanting to fight with you is cowardly. I know you wanted a fight oh so bad, sorry to disappoint you. I chose to do it becuase I realized no one had commented on what I think is one of the best breeding I have heard of. I actually have a lot of respect for your breeding program so you are way off base about me. I think we have different ideas of the perfect rottweiler and choose to breed for different types but why does that make me wrong? I respect how adamant you are about health testing. I wish you the best with your litter and am sure they will do well for you.

BTW, get to know someone before calling them a coward. You really know nothing about me

Chris, really. Your comment was designed to be derogatory to people who compete in the AKC arena. It was designed to start something, tick people off, or make someone feel inferior.

It was rude and nasty, the comment of a small person who needs to step on someone else.

Did you honestly think that when you made such a comment that there would be no response? People don't write those kinds of things unless they are looking for a donnybrook.

Now you want to run backwards and plead poor me, and put me in the position of the shit stirrer. Sorry, bud, you are the one wearing that hat. Your comments would indicate that you have no respect for any person who competes in the AKC arena, NOR their dogs.

You can comment on the quality of anyone's breeding without calling all AKC dogs SHIT and specifically pointing out my breeding, which is the ONLY one you could have been referring to on this board.

You might feel that no one is as smart as you are, but it does not take a PhD to catch on to what your intent was.

I will say again, if you are going to make such disparaging comments, at least own them instead of running backwards after someone calls you on it.

CHERI, will you please split this off so David's breeding announcement thread is not ruined. Thanks.

While I like German lineage and the tail I prefer. I would LOVE to have a Loral's Dynamo daughter. They are the best Mother's I have worked with. Moose's records speaks for itself.

What is so special about a AKC Champion anyway ? Think about this, you can have a AKC Champion at for example 16 or 17 months old but at 2 years old and time to get hips tested find out it is moderately or severely dysplastic. What good is the Championship title ? For life the dog carries a CH title and can't get a OFA number. Some people just put way too much value on a AKC Championship. CH doesn't mean it is a good dog

And a Sieger(in) title automatically makes them a great dog? A dog or bitch without any competition can be declared the Sieger(in) at a regional show.

But as much as I dislike the USRC, at least they ask for a hip number. I was told in the past that I shouldn't show my dog because dog shows are for breeding stock. A dysplastic Champion isn't very good breeding stock. I think that some people get a prelim and know ahead of time they may have a problem and rush through to a championship. I doubt very much that USRC would let my dog win a Sieger title with his bad hip even if he was the only dog there. Just my opinions

Oh COME on. Are dog shows supposed to spoon feed everything to breeders? No dog without a hip rating? WTF? Should judges consider progeny? Don't we have classes for that? We could have an all health cleared class? How many European dogs would you see in THAT class? Hope they don't require hearts and eyes!

The question remains why Chris Amell slings shit and then runs from it.

Red - All I'm saying is that a dog that has a Championship in ANY venue should be a good breedable dog. Awarding a championship or Sieger title to a dog who isn't yet deemed breedable is just stupid. CHAMPION or SIEGER should mean something, more than just a pretty face

this thread is absurd! and Andy, your're the pot calling the kettle black! XL has what hip rating? and is still being shown.

In a perfect world, showing dogs would be done to select breeding stock. But the truth is that there is so much more to deeming a dog breedable... from the titles, to the health clearances, to temperament, desire to work, whether he stays sound etc. Stating that an AKC Championship doesn't mean anything because it can be achieved at a young age is backward thinking. You'd then have to suggest that no one be excited about a Best Puppy or Youth Sieger win (or heck even V-1 as an adult without a hip rating), because those can be achieved prior to deeming the dog breedable. If this were the case, why would anyone show a youth dog? A dog that happens to finish an AKC Championship as a youth typically does so because it has qualities that merit it beating adult competition. I would suggest that if a puppy or youth went on to say, something like Most Beautiful at a Sieger show, defeating all of the adults, the same people who discount a young Champion would be on here bragging until the cows came home.

Back to the original topic, it is my guess that anyone who is convinced that there are not quality AKC Champions out there has never been to an ARC National. I'd love to hear anyone tell me that they have been to one... ANY one...and that they did not see quality animals. The AKC venue is no different than the Sieger venue in that there are big events with quality judges and outstanding competition nearly every time the event is held (ARC Nat'l, MRC, CRC, The ADRK Klubsieger, The IFR, World Show, Crufts or Westminster for instance) and there are also tiny shows with barely qualified judges and poor competition... in every country. And on any given day, we can see the most fabulous dog we've ever laid eyes on win, or be defeated by an inferior animal, despite which venue we are in.

We ourselves have gotten to the point where we only care to attend the larger events. Because we attend these large events we encounter dogs of higher quality than those who attend only their local events. In my opinion, no one should be breeding Rottweilers if they haven't attended at least half of the events listed in the paragraph above. Because, as fun as it is to win, the most important part is to develop an eye for the best possible dog. In our experience, that eye will never be developed by sticking to only one venue. Nor will the understanding of correct structure come without working a dog at advanced levels.

Ann - That is one of the best replies I have read from someone who isn't trying to be an A-hole. I just wish you could understand what I am trying to say. Winning an event and getting a best of breed or best of show or a V-1 is a great thing but I don't think it is enough to deem a dog a Champion. A Champion in any venue should be a dog as you said, with ALL of what it takes to be a GOOD breedable dog.

A person would think that breeders who are really trying to do a good service to the breed would breed dogs who have ALL the best in each catagory. They in a perfect world would breed only Excellent hips , NO elbow problems what so ever, working title, etc. What we get are people breeding good or fair hips to dogs with good or fair hips, dogs with a questionable elbow or two to other dogs with the same problem, dogs without any kind of working title to dogs who may have a AKC CH title which means nothing but the fact the dog is pretty.

So many say this is a working breed and want it to remain so. An AKC CH doesn't mean the dog would work at anything it just means they are pretty. BUT, many people breed on the AKC Championship alone. Bite work seems to be the only true test to some people on a dogs temperament and ability to work. Thats the way it works in Germany anyway. They breed dogs with that ability AND good hips AND conformation. If you ask them their way is best. In the US they breed dogs with no test of any kind of working ability or temperament AND good hips AND conformation and those people swear their way is best.

So exactly how many of these AKC Champions could you go pull out of a ring and get a working title on ? A herding title ? I'm sure there are many but really only a minute amount compared to the THOUSANDS of AKC Championships they give out. So I guess the questions is , what are really considered shit dogs when you compare the two ways of breeding ? Which way is really best ?

I understand where you're coming from. I'm just of the opinion that a Championship is not what makes a dog breedworthy. Yes, we nearly always breed dogs who have the title, but it's not the title that made them a dog I would consider. We have bred countless Champions who never went on to be bred, and even owned a Sieger titleholder who we did not feel worthy of breeding. As you stated, these are beauty titles only. There is much more to determining a dog breedworthy.

This may help. It's a page on our website that outlines how we choose which dogs we breed... http://www.esmondrott.com/faq_breedings.htm Not all breeders will have the same criteria for breeding, but they all should have SOME criteria.

As to which dogs can work? I hate to be the one to point it out, but at any sieger show, there are just as many untitled (no working titles) dogs as in the AKC rings. Looking at catalogs from both the USRC and ARC Nationals a few years back (events held just days apart), there were less than 10% of dogs in BOTH venues with a working title. The truth is that the truly accomplished dogs are few and far between. But they are around. In our experience, an outstanding working dog will excel across all working venues, including the bitework.

As to which dogs are "shit"? Personally, I don't feel that any living creature should be referred to this way. There are many dogs (and people for that matter) that I don't feel are worthy of procreating, but in my opinion, anyone who referrs to a dog in this manner is not someone I want to know.

Again, nice reply and very understandable

Thank you Ann for your thoughtful and as always, outstanding insight.

If a dog was sound, I would have no issue finishing one that was not destined to have a hip number nor to be bred.

IMO you cannot rush a dog through to a CH title. The dog must be able to compete and win in the current competition. Dogs are either ready and competitive, or they are not. In Rottweilers, most dogs need to be 15 to 18 months old before they are really ready to compete for the points. Yes, some finish younger, but this is unusual.

While I truly enjoy the competition, I don't need any dog show judge to decide for me which dogs I am going to use for breeding. For me neither show titles nor working titles in and of themselves qualify a dog for breeding.

@Ann:

I like your replies very much!

First I want to say that I am sorry if I offended any of you who breed quality AKC dogs. If you get to know me you will learn that I am not at all the person Rebekah paints me to be. For some reason she has always had a problem with me. I think it is because we live near each other and I am a rottie person not in her circle so I must be doing it wrong, who knows? I did not start this thread, I asked why no body was commenting on a breeding that was announced. We all know people will jump to tell you what you are doing wrong so why wouldn't anyone comment about the breeding? Rebekah and I like different breed types and therefore I don't follow her kennel at all. I really had no idea she had announced a breeding, nor do I care. I personally prefer the German dogs and the Sieger shows because you can read the critique and see what the judge saw and thought of the dog. I prefer to show my dogs in this venue as I feel it is import to help breeders breed better dogs and therefore better the breed. We all know you can get just about any dog finished in the AKC so that title really has no value to me. Before I am drawn and quartered, we have all heard of someone taking a dog to Puerto Rico, or South Dakota to be finished where their handler can "get it done". We know it happens. Don't yell at me. I know not everyone does it but you know it happens! When I go to Sieger shows I go to learn from what the judge says. It is nice to know why they were placed in the order they were, even if you don't agree you at least know why. Not so in the AKC ring. Personally I think the AKC probably has better confirmation overall then our German Rotties. But so much of breed type happens between the ears, and this is what I can't sacrifice. Not in my breeding program. To each their own and this is my breeding values.

Sorry for my random thoughts.

Now I told myself I wasn't going to comment directly to Rebekah but I simply can't let this go. How dare you call me a coward. You know nothing about me! I didn't leave my family to join the 82nd Airborne and defend our country during the Gulf War to let two faced hipocrites like you call me a coward. I would rather you just say thanks! This is something I have done to make the world a better place, I even did it for you. What have you done? Quit targeting me because you don't want me targeting you.

AKC dogs flopped at the AIRK show this weekend.....where the hell is their drive?? OMG what an embarrassment that must of been.....No AKC dogs placed high at the show......tennis ball didnt smell enough like a hot dog......I couldnt believe the lack of drive in these dogs....it was simply ridiculous......guys...you AKC focused people need to put up the food an show a damn ball to your dogs once in a while....also...dont bring FAT dogs to a ring that is meant to be athletic...you guys looked like charles barkely trying to make a come back...HAHHA

NOW!!!

To be devils advocate.....the AKC dogs that did well who showed drive.....kutos!!! they did well and i liked the look and movement....good job breeding your akc lines to euro lines...it helped ya..... I saw a couple nice AKC lines bred to Euro lines...but i DID NOT SEE AKC TO AKC LINES to anything.....he was generous in ratings.....he also got frustrated with with "foot stacking" and poor handling....

(In my best Beavis and Butthead voice)

Are you threatening me?

Again lots of snow here. Just have to comment. I have Dog, I don't call him a AKC dog or a Sieger dog. He is my Companion dog. USRC NATIONAL SIEGER 07, USRC North East regional Sieger 07 BIS, BISS,CH, Overnight Express Von Hobson SchIII, ztp,bh,ad. He was bred by myself and titled to all his wins and titles by me personal. He has a AKC BIS, NATIONAL SIEGER TITLE 07 and is Multi Sch III dog. His sire was one of those akc dogs. The bitch was from my breeding . My problem with both AKC dogs and Sieger Dogs is, there are many AKC breeders breeding correct temperament with correct drives. And many successfully work there dogs in Schutzhund. Breeding is balance in all areas. Temperament, Drive, Construction. I see many people with import dogs. The test is in time. To see what those individuals do with there breedings. I don't look at those dogs as those kennels breedings (the people who purchase them). To see what a kennel produces takes generations. Those are the results of the kennels which produces them. Not the owner who owns the bitch either in whelp from the foreign country or bred here to a import. I see so many people importing dogs and breeding them. I don't look at them as there breedings. That's the work of the imported kennel. And we are seeing good drive for the ball or toy some of them. I have seen many dogs both in AKC and SIEGER shows with no drive, and no construction. The Rottweiler should be a Rottweiler, the venue you exhibit it in does not constitute the true dog. And to have a successful akc or sieger dog or true rottweiler you need correct balance in all areas to accomplish any of those things. Its a avenue you have chosen to show in. And hopefully this stupid tail situation will end, and tailed dogs will eventually be able to be shown in (AKC) with no prejudice. Then you will even have SIEGER dogs with ( OH NO ) a AKC Title. WOW!!!!! Just a little humor there. A nice dog with nice correct temperament and drive should just be a nice ROTTWEILER either bred Here in the USA or Through out the WORLD. Its about BALANCE!!! GOD BLESS Jane Hobson

Excellent Post, Jane!


Steve

For the record, I am not against tails. I am FOR the breed standard which is in effect in the country in which I live. I have friends, close friends, who have imports with tails. It is a non issue.

Rebekah,

I am glad you are not against tails, but let me correct you on your citing of "the breed standard" which you claiming is in effect in the country in which you live. What you are referring to is the "breed standard" of the ARC the breed club for the AKC, NOT the "country of which you live." It is the ARC's breed club representation of their own so-called "standard." It is not the breed standard of the FCI for the Rottweiler.

The one and only standard is that Rottweilers are born with tails, period. The FCI standard, if you will, comes from the parent countries kennel club from the country of origin for the breed, which in this case is the ADRK in Germany, and that reads that the Rottweiler has a tail. The USRC for all of its faults right now has adopted the FCI and by extention the ADRK standard, which is the correct standard. The arbitrary amputation of limbs from a living creature simply for cosmetic purposes for some false standard or ideal of what a Rottweiler should or should not look like is not my idea of humane treatment of the breed or other breeds where they do the same stupide stuff (e.g. Boxers, Giant Schnauzers, Dobermans, and so on).

The AVMA has agreed with this position and as the representation of health care providers for animal welfare in this country they deem it inappropriate too. So, be mindful to not make statements that are not correct and misleading. The ARC/AKC do not represent the government, the FCI, the USRC, the ADRK, or the AVMA...they only represent themselves and a very small minority it is too.

Can you see us from way up there, David?

Is Spencer south of Charlotte?

Friggin give the tail bullshit a rest. If you want tails fine if not then dock. End of story. You realize of course the FCI makes allowances to the "standard" for countries where it's still legal to dock and crop? So techinically according to the FCI the USRC is in violation of the FCI rules since the club is a US club. Still plenty of vets who dock and crop and not just the old timers.

Honestly, Rebekah, no, not really, because it is very difficult to see through all of the backyard breeders with expensive dogs and fancy websites that claim they are ethical breeders, that they care about the breed when all they care about is themselves, their egos, and making money. I rescued and placed 60 dogs last year with my rescue group, 55 in 2008 and 52 in 2007 and my average personal investment to my rescue is just under $10K a year, not including the money I raise by shaking down friends, business partners and businesses to donate to my rescue. Some of the dogs I rescued have definitively come from some of the kennels of people in these breed clubs and on this forum.

I am just a happy pet owner that likes to work and show my dogs for fun although when I got them originally neither was my intention, but they enjoy it so like any good parent if they want to play after school activities or sports then I let them. I even bought a Mini-Van to tote them around in to their Schutzhund classes and their beauty pageants. I also use that van to do a lot of rescue transports.

So for me the tail issue is not about what breed club does what, for me it is about something that just should not be done at all. All dogs, of any breed, are born with tails and therefore they should be left as nature made them. Humans are born with two ears, five fingers and five toes right? What do you think the response of the community would be if a handful of people said we should be cutting off a few fingers or an ear or a toe, because some small group of people things it looks more cosmetically pleasing? Would you consider it inhumane or unethical to do so? If so, why? Rhetorical questions, but I look at the dogs no differently than humans, actually I think dogs are better than humans. Humans know better, the dogs do not. So, big picture, the tails should be left as nature made them.

Careful you don't fall down from way up there on that pedestal. You might push a tooth out of line and have to fix it.

Actually, I have a better chance of having lightening bolts come out my ass, but I like to live in the real world, not in someone's made up fantasy land. It is amazing to me what envy can do to people.

Just know, David, there are no secrets in the dog world.

I've lost track over the years how much I've invested in my dogs. Sufficed to say it's more than I care to really know. To date I've never made a dime off my dogs. Never bred or sired a litter. While I love my dogs I remember at the end of the day they walk on four legs, lick themselves, sniff each other's butts and think cat poop is caviar...hence they aren't humans.

I have tailed dogs and docked. I have no problem with people who decide to dock at less than 7 days old. While I can't say definitively that they don't feel a lot of pain at the time of docking I've read enough over the years to believe it's minimal at best. Up until 10 years ago most of us had not seen a tailed Rottie...5 years ago that the debate really became an issue and we arrive at today with anyone who docks or wants docked are now perceived as the Satan incarnate.

LOL...the rumors and gossip in the dog world are WAYYY more entertaining than in my office. Just because I heard a rumor about Tommy Stark getting his curve in his swerve with some farm animals last week in his parents living room does not necessarily make it it true, but I suppose everyone likes to believe whatever fantasies they want to believe. I personally have one that involves two Asian chicks with fake boobs, a red head with a ghetto booty from a Sir Mix-A-Lot video, a chimp, an industrial sized box of Crisco, ten pans of Jello, and Slip-N-Slide, then I woke up.

what about the two flight attendants on the flight to Paris? that was fun too....

and they wern't farm animals....it was a three legged bear, two pigeons, a whale, and a flying squirrel

Oh, ya, loved the flight attendants. Whatever happened with you and Stifler, the hamster and that big plastic tube you guys were experimenting with last week?

that got messy, hamsters are as friendly as you think! stiflers mom got invovled too...stifler is still in the hospital due to testicular hamsteritis....He plans to breed this hamster to a nice nice Rottweiler.....gonna name the breed Rottenham...

Are you recovering well from the experiment you and andy dick were doing with the one legged transvestite, the bottle of castor oil, and the snake?

No, it wasn't caster oil dumby, it was that Hot Hooters Boobie Oil...you know the strawberry tasting one that heats up when you rub it on. Come on, get it right man.

I know about Hot Hooters Boobie Oil...i just thought that part was a rumor pun intended

Ya, you busted me, once in a Blue Moon when Pink Elephants fly the occasional rumor might have some validity, so you caught me, I am a Hot Hooters Boobie oil using fool. Long live Hot Hooters Boobie Oil and Love Potion #9.

just as long as the rumor about you using the new Pfizer product endorsed by Tiger Woods called Tiagra your good...i do hear its good for 18 holes....

OMFG...Tommy Stark, I about pissed myself on that one...STOP giving away all my secrets!!!

Got nothing but love for ya Baby!!! Can't wait to see you in Jacksonville, NC in a few weeks.