Rottweileronline.net

http://www.thedogplace.org/Breeder-Exhibitor/ShowDog/WorkDog-Disappear_Lanting-0611.asp

Always enjoy Fred Lanting's articles and insight....

"The only way out, the only hope of saving the breed, is to re-unite it. Bring back the two wings as they were in the days of Alfred Hahn and Rummel and yes, even von Stephanitz. How? Well, one step would be to require the conformation judges of the so-called “working dog” classes (Gebrauchshund) to watch the courage tests, perhaps scheduled earlier in the week, and have Leistungsrichters advise them when deciding on the choices of the VA dogs, as these are the ones that get the most breedings. Dogs with high IP scores should be spotlighted and these accomplishments taken into account. Maybe have the BSP before the Sieger Show instead of two weeks later as now occurs, with the judges of the Sieger Show required to watch every dog’s performance. Other innovative ideas should be employed that would encourage the sport dog to enter the conformation shows. Dogs should be moved up quite a few placings if they do good work at the courage test that is currently held on Friday of the Sieger Show weekend. It is a real shame that perhaps the best-working female at the 2006 Sieger Show, the Swedish bitch “Space Geanie”, was only given an SG; perhaps if the judge had seen her courage test, she would have been awarded the V she deserved. In males, the tremendous work of dogs like Nando Haus Vortkamp, a very dark sable sired by Buster Adelmannsfelder, should have been rewarded, not hidden from the conformation judge."

http://www.thedogplace.org/Breeder-Exhibitor/ShowDog/WorkDog-GapWidens_Lanting-0612.asp

Sorry, forgot the link to Part 2. A good quote from Part 2 (not something I agree with but interesting)

"If show dogs need a SchH or IP or HGH title in order to gain recognition in the conformation ring, then “working-line dogs” should be required to have a V rating in the Zuchtschau or perhaps a Landesgruppe show, and a Körklasse-1a in order to rank in the top-ten BSP spots, or in the annual WUSV working trials. "

Dana,

I totally disagree with this second comment. Just having a working title (with any score) does not equate to having a V rating in conformation. If they want to require a V rating in conformation for the working line dogs, they should require a working title with a V score for the show dogs. SG ratings/scores for both would be more appropriate, in my opinion.

Well said Lucy !

I agree with lucy on this one.

Lucy,

Only those who have held a leash to do more than run in square could comprehend.

Thanks, Guy, Brian, and Gret! We who have tried to do both conformation and working titles on our dogs know how hard it is. I still find it frustrating that so many people who claim to breed working Rottweilers don't actually work their dogs. I also find it frustrating that so many so-called Rottweiler people no longer work the breed and have gone on to other breeds or don't work dogs at all; they just are dog brokers. I guess money talks.

What I find frustrating is the predicament I see with this new dog I have. He worked on Marku Maaser two weeks ago and did a long bite (his first one ever) that blew my mind. I've never see a Rottweiler bring it and fly like that. Ever. Will he ever get a breeding? No. His ears turn side ways, he is at the bottom of the standard and he has a level bite.

The more time I spend with Malinois people, the more I understand how they keep the system working.

You have a breed that is comprised entirely of fake pedigrees. I was talking to a guy who does a ton of importing and works a lot of the European championships and he went to a well known dutch kennel and said the real pedigrees are written on the equivalent of toilet tissue ! You have a breed where we say "welll...if its not too much trouble could you check the hips before breeding...I mean, only if you want" .... less than 6% of our breed comes back dysplastic. Dogs who's parents and great grandparents and great great grandparents who were health checked by seeing if they landed okay after coming over an 6-8 ft palisade .... they come back OFA excellent. Breeds that mandate the hips for breeding... 20% dysplasia rates. And a breed where the idea of having the dogs be critiqued and run around a ring to check for "conformation" was shot down SOLIDLY as soon as it was uttered ...yet structurally many of our dogs do perfectly fine in the AKC ring too and the AKC breeders are turning to these working dogs to fix their structure and temperament issues that breeding for the show ring has done.

To me it says the way to go is to breed for working abilities and stop concerning with the big head and the big chest and all that other nonsense. Let the work decide whether the dog is breedable. It would be a very interesting experiment to see what the NVBK and KNPV could do if they started breeding Rottweilers. And obviously take the money and ego out of it. While I see the purpose and ideals behind the breed systems, I'm not seeing how it has improved the breed. Seems more people use them to throw the baby out with the bath water for any little thing and not as a tool of selection of proper stock.

You hit the nail on the head Dana. It really would be interesting to see KNPV or NVBK breeders try their hand at Rottweilers.

well, as citizen of Belgium, i know a lot NVBK (we are sponsors of the NVBK and we are on all their championships) and also KNPV people
i can tell you that they will not lay their hands on the Rottweiler
i sold a few dogs to the KNPV, some of them could make it, some dont
my selection was SCHH and sometimes Ringsport
it would be a good start when people forgot about fancy titles and looked more to the dog's quality during trainings
i know several Rotts in person who have drives and qualities who can compete against any other breed, many of them are not titled
Dana, you must understand that all "alternative breeds" cannot be bred without a certain conformation
when conformation is not important at all, people take a Mali or Dutch Shepherd, not a Rottie
there are still a few lines around who are having the working genes, believe me
it is just impossible to have the ultimate working Rottie in a 50-55kg coat...

Interesting thing though is most of the Mali people that I know have come from Rotties and just given up on the breed. Many still have a Rottweiler at home because they prefer the personality but a Mali to take to competitions.

I probably shouldn't get involved but I'd like to add my thoughts. Not bashing working people at all or busting balls, just my thoughts.

Everything I have ever read about Rottweilers says they were working dogs but what they did was herd cattle, sheep etc and guard money from sales of items after being sold. Some argue that they were war dogs first but who really knows. After herding and that type of work was pretty much finished they had no use for the Rottweiler BUT at some point and time someone thought of using them for police work and tested them only to find that they had the ability to do that type of work. Now this is my thought... Nobody ever said they could do it AS WELL as another breed. only that they could do it. Maybe you Rottweiler people are beating your head against the floor trying to do something you just couldn't do. Maybe you couldn't go back 20 years ( before the Rottweiler was so called watered down ) and find a dog who could do the work as good as a Mal or GSD can.

Reading the breed standard tells us they Rottweilers were supposed to be a powerful, robust, larger type dog with great strength. Not exactly the perfect recipe for a dog who will ever be as fast or agile as a 75 or 80 pound GSD or Malinois. Again, Schutzhund was a test developed for GERMAN SHEPHERDS and people decided to try their Rottweiler in the sport. How long will it take before Rottweiler people realize they don't have a GSD or Mal, that they have a Rottweiler that is trying to do what it was never intended to do ? God bless you people who are trying to breed the ultimate working Rottweiler but you have a long uphill battle and getting down on people who do not do that type of thing isn't right and it isn't right to blame them for killing the working ability of the breed.

I do agree that some people have gone and bred dogs that I as a non working person wouldn't even want and don't even have the drive to bait them at a dog show but not every Rottweiler bred today is just a lazy no-drive dog that is useless. When it gets right down to it just about any Rottweiler today is protective of their home, property and I don't know if biting a intruder out or courage or fear would really matter to me if someone broke into my house.

I just don't understand all the talk about show people ruining the breed by trying to keep within the standard. Sorry to butt in but I wanted to add my own thoughts but they are just that,my own thoughts.

First off schutzhund was not developed strictly for GSD, that is the bullshit USA slogan they want everyone to believe. With that mentality according to you only a GSD should be doing schutzhund. Try reading a bit of history here :

http://www.dvgamerica.com/ Go to the history of the DVG.

Secondly I blame not just the "show" people but also the so called "working" people who settle for medocrity in their dogs either through incorrect selection, poor training and/or just being plain assed lazy.

Last but certainly not least, the people who say a Rottweiler can't compete against the Mallies and GSD's particulary the ones who've never stepped on the field and handed in a score-book.

Ditto to what Keith said.

I'd also like to add that perhaps the "blaming of show people" comes from the slogan on every dang show person's website that they "breed for show and working abilities".

Call a spade a spade.

Your dog runs around a ring. THAT is your measure of breed suitability.

So don't presume to say "well my dog has working lines and it chases a ball all day" and think your dog is as good as mine that is proven on the field. Don't think your dog is as good as mine because it says SchH3, 290 in its scorebook. Show me the video and I'll show you a fake title.

As far as the Rottweiler's abilities to compete with the Malinois ... I have both. They have different strengths and weaknesses. No, a Rottweiler could not compete in a sport like French Ring where the jumps are 6+ feet and the trial goes 45 minutes. Some do. But the sport was built for the Malinois.

But Schutzhund, there is NO problem with my new Rottweiler competing as high or higher than my Malinois.

They have different strengths. Where malachai may have more endurance through the Obedience routine, Ciro can track circles around Malachai. Each phase is 100 points. Where the Malinois is weak (tracking) ... Rottweilers are strong. Protection I would take a nice Rottweiler's protection over a nice Malinois. More power. Slower blinds. Its a give and take any good judge recognizes.

Its just too hard to find a good Rottweiler, or even a good GSD. When you do, there are health problems (particularly with the shepherds!). Or they are expensive. I can get a damn good Malinois puppy for $700-800. Find me a breeder selling quality Rottweiler puppies for under $1500.

Keep in mind, I started in '97 running around rings with dogs. I showed AKC for YEARS. I have studied and would go head to head on a structure test with anyone who competes in German Style events or AKC. I know my structure. I know what the standard SAYS.

There was a great article a sight hound breeder wrote that said something to the effect of, a standard tells you the size, color and shape of the eye, but it doesn't tell you if the dog can SEE.

Andy -- you show me the house where the Rottweiler will "protect its home and property" and I will show you a dog that runs and wouldn't engage. And yes that includes my own house. Be realistic.


Dana

"Andy -- you show me the house where the Rottweiler will "protect its home and property" and I will show you a dog that runs and wouldn't engage. And yes that includes my own house. Be realistic."
Dana what are saying in this statement?

Rottweiler prices are better off being high then low. Look at all the punks that have $500 pits. We have enough BSL issues without the price being low enough for everyone to buy a rottweiler.

Many working people try to cut the weight of a dog in order to increase speed. Some working rottweiler people keep their dogs too thin and this is many times why the dog does not look good enough for someone to use as a stud. Mals are fast but "power" is measured as "mass" X "acceleration". Those 30 kg. malinois have the acceleration but do not have the mass to go with that acceleration and therefore do not have the power.

As long as a KS winner can go for many times the price of a DM winner then you will not see a change in what the majority of breeders strive to produce.

Andy rottweilers have been doing schutzhund and man work long before you were born. It is a lame excuse saying schutzhund was designed for the GSD.

Andy,

Excellent post!

What has caused changes in our breed is changes in the needs of society! Our society has evolved, the result, the lack of real jobs for what our breed was designed to do!

How many college students are going to go out and study & prepare for a career which is no longer relevant or even exists for them today?

The same logic goes for our Rottweiler!

If you want our Rottweiler to actually provide a meaningful service to society then find a current need and start training them for that!

JMHO,
Steve

I'll go out on a limb here and say conformation is not exactly a meaningful service to society for Rottweilers either.

Neither is the sport of schutzhund a service to society!

Its like the law of supply and demand, as long as there is no demand there isn't much need for the supply!


JMHO,
Steve

Damn sight more of a service than running in a circle for points or a trophy.

Thats the way I see it Steve. As long as there are other breeds who will do the job with less training and half the issues, why would anyone want to use something else ? The waiting list for a serious working Rottweiler isn't very long in any venue. I totally respect the people who want to compete with their breed of choice but sometimes even though you work twice as hard, you still only get 2nd best.

I was a racer once and my choice of brand was a Ford. Parts cost twice as much, half the technology, and twice the work. Winning was the best experience ever as I was underdog. It was very rewarding so I can understand why someone would choose to use a dog the same way. Not every person who owns a Ford can say that they have ever been on top but with enough determination sometimes you can compete and win with 2nd best. The one thing I learned in all of my racing is that you can't have a 9 second car without a 9 second driver. Same can be said for dogs and working titles. Without the right person behind the dog breeding and pedigree mean squat. I am not knocking ANY of you working dog people, not at all. I'm just curious and I ask questions. You don't learn anything without asking questions.

Actually Schutzhund, Ringsports, KNPV, NVBK, etc are all selection criteria for working service animals. Police dogs, military service animals, search and rescue dogs, etc. I know a lot of people who bring dogs over for departments. They don't go to their local AKC or Sieger show to handpick dogs, they go and work a bunch in Europe and where they go for dogs is to these competitions.

That too many people THINK their dog will know how to react during a home invasion but 90% or better of dogs would not know what to do in that situation, especially if you start throwing in some random variables. There was a really good video of A'Tim, one of the more famous Malis, put up of his DMC Korung. The dog had a scenario he'd never seen before and freaked a bit and didn't engage. You could see the conflict. I was working with a PPD group and the guy that basically founded the sport of PSA was out there with his dog, talkin' a big game about the dog he had at the time and someone said they could get the dog to not engage. Definitely a good strong dog ... a very very good dog and a dog that would and has gone civil. So the handler sent the dog on the guy, zero equipment. The dog started coming, the guy without equipment yelled "NO! Bad! NO!!!", gave the dog a command in French and brought it back to its handler. I saw something similar when we were doing suit scenario training with a working Police Dog, one that has won our local police dog competition several years.

Every dog can be run. Every single one. You just have to tap into the right thing. A trained dog you can usually tap into their training and bring out conflict. I have two dogs in my house that will bite civil. Malachai has done scenarios with hidden sleeves, car jacking, and has had 3 seperate live bites (one on the arm, two on the legs that occured during training session mishaps) etc. We could teach him home invasion fairly easily. But the right person who knows dogs could easily read into some of his weakness and rob my house.

So for me, dogs that are specifically trained for PP or police work, dogs that are trained for bite sports, dogs that are specifically trained for home invasion .... they all have their holes. Now give me a dog that has NEVER had a real bite on a person ever, has never bitten equipment and is probably a little unsure of whether its okay what he's doing and I could get in and out of any house fairly easily.

Just my 2 cents. I hear too often people make claims about how bad ass they are sure their dog is. Go test it and see. Thats why we have these sports, to test the nerve, recovery, and drives of the dogs to be sure they are suitable for working tasks.

Rottweiler IS a working breed. I just don't understand why those that want a big headed lazy fatty dogs that have a problem running 30 laps at KSZ don't switch to a breed that is like that by description.

Dana, I get your point 100%. I also have a mali. Total opposite but lots of fun.

Work-wise - if I had a knowledge that I have today (mostly obedience) when I got Pax - he would beat in competition any malinois any day. As Dana said - tracking and protection. And a knowledge to get over 92 points every time in obedience. Buy yourself a true rottweiler, go on the field, title to an IPO-3 level and go to 1 single competition. And then discuss.

Yes, but only a small percentage ever become working service animals because the demand for a sports dog far exceeds the demand for real working service dogs!



And, what percentage of our Rottweiler's population is actually employed doing these services? .....less than 1%

I know a company would go broke trying to produce supplies with a less than 1 % demand!


Steve

And here lies the problem....looking at this as a business.

There are many other thing a Rottweiler can be trained to do if they need a job. Bomb detection, search and rescue, drug detection and I personally would never look down on these dogs as not being a great Rottweiler. No bite work needed. And on another note about stamina etc. How many Rottweilers go out and do their AD on a 98 degree day ? How many even trial on a 90 degree day ? Many dogs that are pretty healthy fall over at the club show on a 85 degree day and they are not chasing some criminal down the road. Even our conformation shows are held in spring and fall because many many dogs couldn't run the ring on a 80 degree day. How are they supposed to " work " if they can handle a show ? Don't try telling me the police / military have winter time dogs and summer time dogs

Nice try!

The company analogy was meant to illustrate how unreasonable your position is!

If done properly, there is no money to be made in dogs!


Steve

That is what breeding for "pretty" and not function leads to. Doesn't it ALARM anyone the number of YOUNG dogs that have dropped dead from mysterious things in just the last year alone? Doing a few laps around a ring should NOT kill a normal dog. IMO there is something seriously wrong with these dogs besides lack of conditioning and that in itself is a reason not to use them for breeding.

Cindy did her brevet in 100+ degree weather. Its approximately 20 minutes of obedience followed immediately by bitework. They let me throw water on her in between because the ground on the field was so hot. This is the reason I am moving towards breeding to the proven ring-line Rottweilers. I choose Voss for my recent litter because his father was a Ring 3 dog and has several half siblings that have achieved Ring 3. A Ring 3 routine is 45 + minutes of obedience followed immediately by bitework. THAT is more staminia than any AD. That is the only thing this breed lacks in comparison to the Malinois. They are equal in my mind. There is no reason a good Rottweiler cannot compete on par with a good Malinois in Schutzhund.


As far as the supply/demand ... I do not breeding for that. I was talking to Guy about his ability to sell his "working puppies" when he was in Vegas. He said its not a problem anymore. Go talk to some of the top competitors.... most of them started in Rottweilers and many still have one sitting at home. When I was at the Mali nationals there was a table of about 12 of us talking about the Mali compared to the other breeds and the comment I heard the most was "yeah its a shame the Rottweiler can't do it anymore" ..... I think if someone started breeding REAL Rottweilers for the work, people would line up to get one.

But that is irrelevant. For me, I came to a cross roads with my own breeding to either breed for something I personally would want to keep, or breed to something with a head that the puppies would sell for. I decided to go into the red on the litter and I'm doing the same with this breeding. I have no problem giving puppies away for free, so long as I like what I'm producing. And yes I may have to do that for many litters because they don't "have the head" or whatever people are looking for but thats cool.

Like I said before... if it has a big giant white spot and a fluffy coat but it works... I'm cool. Ciro is a good example of this. Sure, his level bite bothers me. He isn't Universal Sieger or V1-rating material. But.... mark my words... he is IFR material and that is my bottom line. I dont want to chase sieger titles... I want to chase world championship titles. So if I give my puppies away in the penny saver, I'm okay with that.

Dana and Urska, great posts! I agree that Rottweilers should be working dogs. The majority of people who argue the opposite do not work their dogs.

I also agree that most dogs that aren't specifically trained as police dogs, don't know how to handle a home invasion situation. I never got my dogs for this purpose. Usually, their presence alone is a deterrent to most home invaders. In my house, if there was a home invasion, my dogs would first alert me to the intruder, then they could run interference while I got my gun.

Andy trials are booked months in advance. The weather "is what it is" on trial day. Mals are the dominant force at schutzhund not GSDs. For Germans to switch from their breed (GSD) to the malinois that really says something. Take a look at big competitions in Germany and see the number of mals competing in the last few years and where they place. Twenty years ago you would not have seen any mals competing in such trials. Whether the sport was designed for the GSD or not other breeds have been doing it well for decades.

Steve the breed is used extensively as a security dog, home protector and personal protection dog. It is also used as an army dog and police dog although not as much as it should be used. It is disgusting to see people advertise their dog as top working dog in the AKC/CKC magazines when they are really referring to show wins. This is deceaving to the laymen.

Chuck - I am truly trying to see both sides of all the arguing. It is a tough road to come up with the perfect working Rottweiler and I'm not knocking the people who are trying to get there. I just don't understand how it all comes down to the show peoples fault about everything. I'd think that a perfect working dog would need to be pretty near perfect in structure as well as temperament. A correct dog is going to run / move a LOT better than a not so correct dog and it is show people who are trying to keep that part of it up, not all by any stretch but most good breeders. A healthy dog is going to work a lot better than a dog that is falling apart. Most show people try to breed healthy dogs and breeding anything at all dysplastic is a no-no. It is FCI and the working people who find it to be okay to breed to mild dysplastic just to keep temperament and that is right in FCI breed rules. Why bypass health for workability ? Would it not be fair for show people to say we don't mind losing some workability for good looks ?

Note - I just went back and reread the rules and they are not written as they were a year ago. It did say that all but severe dysplastic was okay as long as the dog had a title. Now it says no severly dysplastic and that is about it. It does say that a member country can make that rule tougher though if it chooses to.

Andy....go to your next big working championship and evaluate the structure of the dogs.

I think the biggest qualm is not that people are breeding for "pretty". Its that they don't call it that. They don't say "this is a dog that has a big head and is bred to run in a circle really really well."

They lay claim to be what they are not - "working dogs". Then they go even further to say their dogs are "schutzhund dogs" and bred for schutzhund.

The Malinos breed has a HUGE divide between the AKC group (ABMC) and the working group (AWMA). The ABMC didn't even know malinois COULD bite, much less that a working sport existed. They came out to our National championships and in the name of the breed, we forged a relationship that is actually working out really well to the benefit of both organizations. But if you look at the ABMC breeders websites, you don't see them calling their dogs schutzhund dogs. Nor do you see AWMA breeders claiming to be breeding dogs capable of AKC championships.

To each his own.

But don't market your show dog as a "working dog" just because it can chase a ball and "looks really alert staring at a ball".

And then you get the show people that get indigent to suggest their fido isn't capable of biting a sleeve. Well.... go out and do it. And until you do it and title it, don't call it what it isn't. Because schutzhund is more than just biting a sleeve at your club 1x a year for a photo op.


And just another tangent to throw in there.... if you ARE going to breed strictly for show, for goodness sakes these people really need to pick up a dang book on structure. Just the last two shows typing critiques and really looking at dogs.... I could barely come up with a handful that I would even feed. I mean, if I'm going to own something strictly because its pretty, it better be really good looking. So on top of these dogs having faulty temperaments, they have sway backs, high in rear, poor angulation, too much loose skin, easty/westy front, cowhock rears, etc. So if your going to breed for pretty...at least look past the HEAD of the dog to see how correct the rest of it is. After the NIRK show I heard several people complain about Steve Wolfson talking about the zygomatic arch. How have they NOT heard of the zygomatic arch?? There use to be a huge controversy when I was showing in Junior Showmanship and judges wanted to ask questions of the handlers as a way of determining placements. I was perfectly fine with it and I guess they do it in ASCA shows. One of the parents is a judge in that organization and said one show she asked the girl where the stifle was and she pointed to the dogs nose. These are our future handlers Somehow I don't think I'd fair much better with answers if I asked that question at a German Style event

Dana - It's okay to go on a tangent. I'm asking and you are answering some stupid questions

I am not saying the show people are 100% responsible for any lack of working ability. Working people are also responsible to some degree. Making a BH mandatory has eliminated many dogs that would otherwise gone onto achieving work recognition. Now days scoring rewards a clean dog which is something many good working rottweilers are not.

Chuck, good points!

Why was the BH made Mandatory and why is todays scoring favoring the clean dogs?

Steve

Political correctness. The same thing that caused them to change the name from Schutzhund (Protection Dog) to VPG (whatever that stands for).

BH is now mandatory for any and all dog events in the VDH. You have to have a BH before you can do agility or whatever. The BH is a temperament test as much as it's an obedience test maybe more so as a dog is judged for temperament from the moment you check the tattoo or chip until the trial is over.

Yep! Political correctness due to society's pressure to conform! We are all under the same pressure and our Rottweiler has changed and will continue to change because of it!

Steve

And that is sad and pathetic IMO. We don't need a world full of Golden Retrievers and labradoodles. We need dogs that can work and to continue breeding dogs that can work, you need a few crazy ones that are over the top.

Anton Spindler made a big show at my BST about really pushing the dog further than a normal Rottweiler should really be pushed. I think that over that and the BH requirement are really doing a disservice to what the breed is really suppose to be. Its a working dog. It says in the standard it is suppose to be reserved and not lend itself easily to friendships. THAT is what attracted me to the breed. I don't want a dog that will wander off with anyone and wag its tail for a petting from anyone. I want a dog that is reserved except for its family and friends. And conforming to societies pressures is going to lead us down a very bad path.

I agree with you, Dana. Rottweilers should not allow strangers to dominate them. They should be trained to tolerate things, but they should not be Golden Retrievers, willing to put up with anything from a stranger. I have never entered a CGC test and I don't plan to.

I disagree about the BH doing a disservice Dana. Done as per the rules no one touches your dog. They need to be neutral/tolerant of strangers being close and everyday sights and sounds that any dog may encounter short of living it's life on a farm somewhere.

US people only

Those of you who want the working Rottweiler of old. Who think a BH, CGC or TT are more than what should be done to such a dog (and I am not including some of the overseas tests that go beyond these we have in the US or a Sue Sternberg shelter eval)

What about your pet dog families? Do you really think they can handle such dogs?

The dogs you are describing are as specialized as military or police dogs. They are NOT suitable for family pets. Meaning if you breed and sell such dogs they can/should never be sold as family pets

In the US today a dog needs/must be family safe. It should be safe to take to Petco, the vet or a walk downtown. It should be accepting of casual hello pats from strangers, accidental bumping from loose children

It should have high intelligence, high trainability and good bidability and should be able to title in just about any venue a buyer wishes to try. (individual dogs having their own preferences of course) and despite many of your thoughts- obedience, tracking, rally, carting, herding, agility etc is also work

To say that a dog that can pass the average US CGC, TT or BH (Not the Spindler BH version or some of those invasive almost shelter test style tests overseas) is not a real Rottweiler is not realistic for what is legally and socially expected here in the US

No the dogs should not be Golden Retrievers but they should not be unsafe for passing the CGC, TT either with their owner handling them. My Bea was VERY stranger suspicious and very much an actual house guardian temperament (ie: would bite an intruder) and probably would have quickly failed one of those stupid Sue Sternberg shelter evals (as would my Bill) were she a stray in a shelter; But with me handling her she was more then able to pass a CGC and a TT

Bite work is not the end all; at least not here in the US where most can't even get a home owners policy if you train in Sch type work

I know I am the minority here and will shut up now but had to make this one comment

i have nothing against the BH, a good trainer can pass with all his dogs a BH. this is not the real reason of the character watering down.
if you check the working lines of today, they are still not watered down, the contrare ! we still have dogs like Arri, Ken S, Aki, etc...
check out a Ety v Herrenholz, Drago v Atzelgift, Max v Turleberg, Pit v Hirtenplatz to name a few that everybody know.
we have in our small club minimum 3-4 Rotts who are fast as lightning: we have a Pit-son (Hof ter Cammen dog) who is a damn serious and fast ass-kicker, i have my young Ulix-son, my Drago-daughter and my Brutus v Kaisersteinbruch-daughter. all of them are young, except for Demi (the Brutus daughter) but she had a previous life in UK.
anyway, we allways had good dogs and i think we will allways have good dogs, it's just that the bloodlines are more separated as in the old days. we are at the level of the GSD righ now !
we do have some showlines in our club also: Akino, Mambo C, Wilden Westen, etc. offspring... but thats another story
anyway, it has been mentioned before: somebody who works his dogs (in SCHH off corse) up to a title, will see and feel the shortcomings or strongness in his dog while practicing. only after many trainingsessions one will understand the difference between a working dog and a dog who can work.
anyway, people who want to compete with the Rottweiler: dont give up !!!

a good motivation is to train between Mali's and GSDs. While training in Rottweiler clubs we get stories like 'in the land of the blind, is one-eye king'...LOL

Thanks for the good news, Guy! It's good to hear there are still working dogs out there! I agree that a good trainer should be able to train a dog to pass a normal BH. I also agree about the difference between a working dog and a dog that can work.

Of course there are still working dogs out there all one need do is look at your own USRC SCH Nats this year. The winner was produced here in the US from lets say show lines and also the oldest dog in the competition . There are 2 DM's here in this Country at this time there has never been before. As soon as someone owns a hard dog here in the US he is blasted for incorrect temperment. You cant have you cake and eat it too what is needed is more owners doing something with there dog it doesnt matter if they want to show or work just get out and do something and partisipate.

one needs not look to far... I have a bitch Wendy v Wachberg who has ARRI v HERTNER WAPPEN, HERO vom HOHEGEISS, AKI v PEELER HUTTE and happens to be the only bitch in America with an ADRK KORUNG and is DT VDH Champion...in addition I have the 2004 ADRK DM Unkas vh Neubrand who goes back to GREIF v OBERHAUSENER NORDEN, Ken vom Sternbogen.

down the street about 1 hour away available we have the 2008 DM Ives vh Neubrand, Next week I will bring his ister Ivett v Hause Neubrand which is a korung bitch

So at least in SO CAL the COMPLETE Rottweiler is not disappearing

Why are we breeding for the family pet again?? Maybe I missed something. I can breed two crazy monster dogs together and get 1/3 that are even half the temperament of their parents. Just like two BIS winners do not produce 8 BIS winning puppies. Its the same genetics, although sometimes harder to isolate temperament in breeding. The Rottweiler is not the breed for everyone, nor should it be. If we breed to water down the Rottweiler in the name of making nice family pets, we might as well be breeding Goldens or Cavaliers. The breed is SUPPOSE to have drive and worth ethic. Its SUPPOSE to have a strong temperament. Accepting causal hello pats from strangers.....??? Not something my dogs need to do.

I really do not mind the BH in and of itself. I just dont like it taken to the extreme. Just like the BST should not be taken to the extreme. Both should be done with the breed in mind. Traffic sureness...okay. Lets see if the judge can hug and leer over the dog.....not so much.

Yes I've done TT on my dogs. Not a bad test.

Zak passed his CGC with flying colors (yes I still have his yellow Pedigree bandana!) but failed his TT the first time for trying to attack the judge. These are not good test of the breed, or any breed IMO nor are they good test of "temperament". He (many a conversation later) passed his TT, BH, and CD. We could go and pass a CGC again and again. He is still not a sound dog.

My MOST SOUND dog as far as people goes failed her TDI. Apparently she growls when her feet are touched by stangers. Should I wash her out of the gene pool?? No. The evaluator (a long-time pit bull person) just said 'Oh she's being a rottweiler.' She passed her TT with flying colors.


Having done a slew of different temperament test (including letting Zak and Cindy go through shelter temperament testing as part of a thesis project for a friend),.... the only one I can come up with as a good test of a dog's actual temperament is Schutzhund and Herding. Ok...ok...dock diving was a hell of a courage test too but I think if I could've pushed them over the edge it would have gone better!!!


As far as what to do with the puppies that go to regular pet homes..... Offer support and training. ALL my puppies get life-time training. If they are shipped...ship it back and I'll put some titles on it. Whatever you want and whatever will help make the dog be a better companion. They are in PET HOMES for a reason. They just didn't have what it takes. The one puppy I was worried about his edge ended up staying with me. Ciro has several littermates that ended up back with the breeder because they were too much dog. Its what a RESPONSIBLE breeder does. Don't breed for "less" of a dog just to sell puppies. If puppy sales are what you had in mind, we might as well start breeding 250lb Rottweilers or those mini-rott aka black and tan puggle looking things.

Nice post Ruben. I believe there are plenty of dogs who could do the work in the right hands but here in the US people choose no to use the dogs for that reason. There are plenty of dogs with very good working dogs only one or two generations back and I don't believe that dogs lose what it takes that fast. I just think that people here choose not to use them for bite work etc. My friend has a female out of Karl vom Hause Neubrand - Bonny Oberpfalzerwald and you would look at her pedigree and think that the dog would have what it takes to try working him. Pedigree doesn't look watered down to me but he chooses not to work her. He has a male out of Karl - Quadra vom Haus Anin and it is the same story, he chooses not to work him. I have a female bred from Vom Schloss Hexental dogs and although I don't work dogs I believe she has what it takes to be a working dog. She has so much energy, drive and physical ability it scares people who see her jumping to the top of a six foot kennel. I don't know if she has the nerve as she was a kennel dog the first two years of her life and she was taught nothing and really saw no humans. I don't work with her. Truth is that around here we just don't have a training club in every other back yard like they have in Germany. We have a club but is all GSD / Mal people who just don't seem to want to help a Rottweiler person or take the extra time to work with a slower dog. We have the Devlins a couple hours away but ...

There is a lack of trainers here and that I believe is half the problem. I think there are others with good dogs who are in our position. Believe it or not, we took a male out to a German Shepherd guy and he said he didn't really like working Rottweilers because they were more work "on him" ( heavier dog - bite harder LOL )


So anyway, I don't believe it is a lack of dogs as much as it is a lack of people who want to work with them. Just my opinion

First off unless those "good" working dogs a couple of generations back are throwing the correct phenotype on a consistent basis they really are useless.

People want to really work their dogs they'll find a way. Those same people don't have a problem dropping a small fortune to get to a big conformation event. A good dog is a good dog regardless of breed. Same can be said of a shitter, they too come in all shapes and breeds. Nobody in the states can ride a bike from club to club like in Germany. Some people have choices of clubs close by but most do not. It's the nature of the beast so don't use that as an excuse. I've driven 6 hours round trip minimum for over 6 years for each training session. It sucks pond water to travel like that but like I said if you really want to work your dog you'll find a way.

you can also move to Belgium !
3 or more clubs in 30 minutes driving...
i know we are spoiled here, but still the schh3 dogs are not around every street corner
it takes owners with 'high working drives' also
i just come back from training 2 of my dogs between my previous post and now
i had a fair good training, could be better...
next time better
but my norms are not 'Rottweiler minded', they are 'SchH minded'...
by the way Ruben, i liked Ives his obe and bitework very, very much !
the same DM i saw Ives become DM, i was vsuper impressed by Isak v Schonberg (Max T son), a dog who can make a fool of many GSD or Mali's ! FANTASTIC dog !
anyway, dont give up !!!

Bob why would I pay $2500 to use Ives when I can fly to Germany and use a stud over there 400 Euro?

Chuck since you asked me I will answer you my advise would be to fly to Germany.

I would not use Ives... Not even for 400 €. I would have a puppy out of Ivette any time. But Ives just didn't impress me.

what was it that didn't impress you with ives and what was it that impressed you about ivette?if you want you can pm your answer.

Thanks Guy for the kind words about Ives I also liked Isak a super working dog.

Inner strenght, selfassurenes. Ivette as a strong headed and dominant on the field, Ives as just not as good as his sister. I expect more ego from males. But she was in my oppinon stronger then he.

I just had to share something I read today, written by a dog trainer from Belgium:

"Unfortunately, the dog shows destroy a lot of good breeds. I remember the days when there were other breeds competing in working trials, and with success. But “beautiful” dogs bring money.

Most of the time, these dogs have lost the biomechanical qualities and the character needed to perform in working trials. The beauty standard is not functional, it is a relative judgement. Look at nature. Functionality, including adaptability, is the criterion of the fittest - ask Darwin. But mankind thinks it knows better than nature."

Source:
Andre Vandergeten
http://andrevandergeten.com/belgianmalinois.aspx

I would not try to bring credibility to any argument by quoting Darwin!

You don't need to. Just go to the first big working trial and a big dogshow and see it for yourself

I don't disagree with your statement. I just would not quote Darwin to stregthen your case because he did not even believe much of what he wrote at the end of his life. I was just trying to be humorous. Nothing personal intended.

It's not my statement. But it makes a lot of sense. I liked the whole article, it is a critique of mondioring as well

Hate to burst everyone's bubble, but can you guess the only breed that was not outran on the escape bite at last years AWDF Championships? Yes it was a difficult set up, Yes there were malinois, gsd, pit bull, bull dogs, and yes a couple of rottweilers.

The only breed that did not miss the escape bite with a very fast helper was a rottweiler. Mike Burke's rottweiler Atom.

For those that doubt there are serious dogs out there for any kind of situation, need to get to bigger ponds. I have owned, trained, and witnessed several other dogs that could care less of the situations. Their nerves are solid, and they show no hesitation, even when introduced to a new environment.

I met with one of the DOD heads of procurement last year at an event and he confessed it is getting harder and harder to find these types of dogs, regardless of breed for the MWD program. They spend thousands of dollars and now they are trying to build their own program selective breeding program.

The ball, food, clicker, or toys are not the main methods for training these dogs. Their dominant drive is sustained fight drive and it is genetic. It does not drop out like some defense drives, instead it ramps up, up, and up. It is very personal. To these types of dogs, confrontation is not a game or sport. The main method of compliance is that they get to fight more if they choose to be guidable. These dogs cannot be dominated, even by the owner, you learn to reach common ground and respect the relationship.

I have had the pleasure to work with two rottweilers like this in our club. One was an import who's two other brothers passed the Korung in Germany. Tried practicing for the BST with and without a muzzle. It was not happening (the dogs was 6 years old). He has a Sch1 and is not the type of dogs you can walk up and touch. One of the most powerful rottweilers that myself and several others (Dave D., Johnny B.) have worked. This was not a nervy dog, but a confident, dominant dog. I personally find this correct rottweiler temperament. I do not want people just coming up and touching my dogs unless formally introduced. Through training they are taught to tolerant. These type of dogs require much more attention from the handler/owner.

Breeders need to decide if they truly want a confident working rottweiler in their program or a couch potato.

Dan,
Who is this dog you speak of, and what are his lines ??

Chip,

I think Dan is talking about Eico vom Heidebaren.
Eico's littermate brothers in Germany, Erik & Eliot as well as the 'D' litter full sister, Daphne all passed the ADRK Korung with excellent performances.
I worked Erik in Germany and he was very impressive, very typey as well..
All Vico offspring, who I know you are very familiar with, out of an Orso v Kressbach daughter, Ayesha v Heidebaren..
Super bloodline.. Love to hear more about Vico from you either here or PM..

Jim you are correct Eico Heidebaren is the dog Dan is talking about he is a monster. I`ve been doing schutzhund and training dogs a long time he is one of the strongest Rottweilers I`ve been around.

I am sorry and I know the Rottweiler police are going to lynch me for saying this but.... BULLSHIT! There is no reason you can't have a top sport dog that is stable and clear in the head. Who in their right mind really wants a dog that can't be approached by a stranger? I have three SchIII Rottweilers at my house and every one is extremely confident and self assured. And anyone can go to their kennels or crates and take them for a walk even if I am not around. They are honest and true, they will not let a stranger dominate them but they will respect you and what you ask of them. The sharpness that people think makes a dog "real" is what has hurt our breed in the public's eye.

Breed standard, USRC
Behavior / Temperament:Good natured, placid in basic disposition and fond of children, very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behavior self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness.
"He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness." That last word is alertness not defense!


Just one dumb Redneck's opinion....

I had the same thoughts when I read that post yesterday, Chris. If one wants to breed dogs who are nothing but 'gators, then this NEEDS to be part of a closed military breeding program where it is impossible for this sort of dog to fall into the hands of the general public.

This temperament is not correct for the Rottweiler.

just curious who are the three SCHUTZHUND 3 Rottweilers that you speak of describing as "every one is extremely confident and self assured"?

Eros von der Berg Weibertreu, Fox vd Teufelsbrucke, and Elke vom Waldbach

Yeah & I have an Unkas vom Hause Neubrand

Chip,

I think Dan is talking about Eico vom Heidebaren.
Eico's littermate brothers in Germany, Erik & Eliot as well as the 'D' litter full sister, Daphne all passed the ADRK Korung with excellent performances.
I worked Erik in Germany and he was very impressive, very typey as well..
All Vico offspring, who I know you are very familiar with, out of an Orso v Kressbach daughter, Ayesha v Heidebaren..
Super bloodline.. Love to hear more about Vico from you either here or PM..[/quote]


Erik vom Heidebaren's ADRK Korung
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfNrvxGmyoU
watch the long bite..

I don't think any working breed's selection was based on public approachability. That is - in my eyes - a demand of the last 10 years. Talking to some serious breeders of different working breeds gets you thinking. Rottweiler not so long ago was not a dog that anyone could pet. The same goes for malinois (and I dare to say the same goes for any serious working breed). Who could pet a dog at FMBB 15 years ago? Are you sure you can do it now? I hope not.

Can you pet my rottweiler? You can but there is a limit. Two actually. If he doesn't like you he will just stand at the distance and got that very dark facial expression saying "leave me alone". The other one is my hand on him. In that instance you will get a loud warning. Is he stable? As stable as a rottweiler can be. He is a very loving family member and a very good pillow when you need one.

Can you pet my mali? No you can't. She can walk just beside you. She ignores everyone and everything when outside on a walk. But no, you can't pet her. So whenever in a situation when I can't have complete control she wears a muzzle. She is the most loving family member and if she could have it her way she would be touching someone (sleeping on feet, in the lap...) all day long.

Do I consider any of this a problem? No I don't. Why our breed is in trouble is because people are unwilling to see it for what it is. They want a pet/family & kids & neighbourhood friendly dog that is safe with everybody. Rottweiler or any other working breed just can't be. Whoever claims it is should reconsider. Genetics is stronger then some of you think. And protective instincts can pop up when you least expect it. Working breeds are great family pets. For the family. Everyone else is outside their pack. And those of you who want a "friendly towards general public" dog shouldn't change the character of working breeds to suit you but should find a breed that has this in them as a general rule. There are many of them.

But Urska you are not in the United States where people sue dog owners for even scratches. here, if a dog is to ever go out in public it has to have a level of public safety that is NOT required of any breed in other countries.

If however, you live here and your dogs are never out in public OR are muzzled when in public you are probably ok, as long as the dog never scratches a sue happy idiot.

At a show once my VERY social and friendly Shiba Inu scratched a child on the cheek when the child knelt down and was playing with him. it was NOT a bite it was a toenail scratch as he stood on hind legs for the toy. The mother called the show super over and all but called a show committe hearing insiting my dog attacked her child (LUCKILY I had multiple witnesses).

We in the US seem to have a VERY high level of stupid non dog savvy people who expect the world to be safe and will call the police if they even feel intimidated at times.

Here in the US a dog as described in one of the above posts has no business being in public and it's pups should never be sold as pets because something bad will someday happen to the dog involved even if it is a stupid moron general public person's fault

and NO I am not saying they should be Golden retriever (shudder), just tolerant of the public

As the needs and desires of society evolves and changes, so will our Rottweiler. Just like he has through out his history.

It is society, not us breeders, which ultimately decides what our rottweiler is or what he will become.


Steve

Then instead of changing what did and should make the Rottweiler perhaps it should go the way of the Dodo bird.

oh Keith what a horrible thought, a world without a Rottweiler at all?

That is very sad.

Would you really rather they die out, then simply have public safe dogs that won't bite some person who pats it?

I think that there is a difference between "public safe" and uber friendly. I also think a lot of it comes down to the owner. I live in a very large city, and on the majority of our walks (and we take 4-5 walks a day in our neighborhood), we will not pass less than 5 people. My dogs are very public safe. They can walk through a crowded street festival, no problems. But do they want to say hello and be extensively pet by all strangers? No. But I know that. My female will go up to people, say hello, get a sniff, and walk away. I always make sure that she has room to "walk away" when strangers stop us on the street and ask if they can say hello.

I don't think the answer lies in breeding golden-friendly Rottweilers. But perhaps in making sure that the homes the dogs are going to are appropriate for the breeding. Just a thought.

Situations like Diane described is why I don't let anyone pet my dogs in public. "NO he's working" "no he's not friendly" or just plain "NO" is my response to request to pet my dog. I may be rude but this is a person you will never see again in your life. Sure some of my dogs are perfectly stable and friendly but how many times do you hear "gosh, he's never done that before".

Why risk it? Who cares if strangers get to pet your dog? Just say no and move on. There is no reason dogs have to be approached and petted by every idiot and their spawn. There is no reason we have to breed black/tan labradors. Dogs can live in public, go on walks (sans muzzle) ... you just have to be alert to your surroundings and protect your dog from the people who want to pet them or get in their space.

This is a very good observation Kathleen. With any breeding, we will get a variety of temperament types. The key is to evaluate each pup thoroughly enough to know which home will meet the dog's fullest potential while also keeping it safe and happy.

Our standard has never been worded in a way that would indicate that breeders should endeavour to produce a dog who cannot be safe in public. Under temperament, it states that the Rottweiler should be "good natured", "fond of children", "obedient", "biddible", "self assured", "steady"... none of which describe a dog who cannot be taught to tolerate handling by strangers (they don't have to like it, but they must be able to tolerate it... this is as much the basis of the breed test as the bitework is). Words like "aloof", "does not lend himself to indiscriminate friendships" or "fearless" are not synonymous with behaviors that are edgy, reactive or aggressive.

To breed for only one half of the temperament traits listed above is a disservice to a breed whose greatest attribute is to be fearless while also being good natured and steady. I am all for maintaining the traits that make our breed a true working dog. But not at the expense of keeping the traits that make it a true ROTTWEILER.

GREAT post Ann

Excellent post Ann!

I might add, the edgy and intolerant dogs described above are not wanted by the military or police departments either. At a moments notice, the military dog needs to be stable enough to tolerate many situations including being placed in close quarters with other military personal not necessarly from his unit. The same goes for a police dog. It is disruptive and too much of a liability.

Again Ann, nice post!

Steve

This discussion is a perfect example of why there is such a division in the breed and an even better example of why the breed will never excel as a working dog. But the biggest issue in this discussion is about temperament.

Let's see if I've got this straight, If you breed to a dog with high levels of aggression that enjoys the fight and loves to bite, (the characteristic's of a good working dog) you will get a litter full of crazy out of control dogs that need to go into controlled military type programs??????????

While I'll agree these types of dogs aren't 100% correct they are very needed, but they are no less in-correct then the "a" typical North American bred show dog. Which are handled so much they don't know how to perceive a threat. There needed in breeding programs for countless females that would piss themselves if truely threaten. Anyone with minimal breeding experience understands every litter has a range in temperaments and conformation. It's my opinion a Championship, whether it be akc or ckc, in itself has become the gold standard to measure not only a dogs conformation but its temperament as well, based on the fact the dog is happily subordinate and submissive. And, as with so many examples that is exactly what the "a" typical North American bred show dog is. Submissive is not part of the standard in which any working dog is measured unless this discussion is about service dogs... which it's not.

Its society which controls the character of the breed not the breeder??????????

When breeders compromise the integrity of a breed standard they should stop breeding, there no more then a glorified backyard breeder. The real message here is if these breeders don't conform to political correctness "society" they have no market to sell puppies in. Ever since the breed has come to this Country most breeders have choose to ignore the value of the working temperament but by doing so they have never bred what the dog truly is. Breeding these dogs without working them, knowing there temperament and character flaws, knowing how the dog handles and recovers from stress, knowing if the dog is re-active or active and most importantly how you use this in breeding decisions. Anyone can look at a dog and judge the conformation but you can't look inside a dogs head unless you work/train the dog and how you train the dog. Only then will a breeder understand how to produce strong, stable and confident dogs that can handle any situation in society.

Imo, breeders here have made some good improvements to the conformation, top lines and fronts are on the top of the list but not knowing how the dogs your breeding reacts, recovers and handle uncertain situations is like a artist painting color blind. Even those that send there dogs to someone else to get titled are clueless about how to breed the dog correctly. This is the biggest reason why the adrk is and will be leaps and bounds ahead of everyone. It's not that they require a working title or a breed test/title or even a bullshit water down Korung. It's the fact they have generations of working and having a true understanding of these dogs traits we don't have. The emphases isn't on the title, it's the understanding and knowledge you get from working and train your dog.

Great post Frank -100% correct
Wish we had many more people in the breed and sport like you..
Rottweiler working temperment is just as important as rottweiler type, unfortunately it is true working temperment that has been minimized & discounted and it just continues to hurt the breed..

Frank,

I understand your passion and agree with some of the things you are saying.

I have a question.

If society didn't need or desire our Rottweiler to be a police or military dog, would there be a need for him to be one?


Steve

I think Kathleen hits the nail on the head. The dogs have to be in the correct homes and the owners need to cater their public interaction to the dogs they have. I have a social butterfly of a dog, so I have no problem with allowing people to pet my dog (while still keeping an eagle eye and iron-grip on the situation). It gives them a chance to see that Rottweilers are not the horrible stereotype that the media has made them out to be. I have had dogs that were not so gregarious, so I took a more reserved approach to allowing interaction.

I feel our dogs need to be stable in society. They should not be required to "play nice with all people and animals," but neither should they be raving lunatics. I feel there needs to be a range in temperaments because we need to be able to breed in the qualities our current dogs may lack to create the overall picture we desire. There is a place for the VERY strong dogs, but that doesn't mean I want those dogs for everybody.

Frank, I agree 100%. I would never buy a dog from a breeder that doesn't work with his/her dogs and titles them. I don't even consider them to be true breeders. And the knowledge about breeds character is uncomparable to those that never titled a dog.

Just take a few examples of those breeders that everybody knows and about their dogs. Xaver Meixner (vom Schwaiger Rathaus) will not keep a dog that is uncapable of work. He is 70+ and still titles all of his dogs and some more. If you ever saw Sofie work you would know she is not just a pretty face. Harald Menzemer (von der Bleichstrasse) is a helper. When I wanted to be sure that the choice of Chan as a father of my dog was the right one and I talked to him freely discussing the softnes I was told about I got a demonstration that convinced me the choice was correct. And on top of that a lecture about drives. They don't just breed pretty faces, those just can't run. Then just think about Alfons and Oliver, think about the Piepgras family, and others... Why can they breed better dogs, more true? Because they know what a good dog is And being on training field 3-4 times/week, meeting all kinds od rottweiler owners and breeders makes this even more apparent. I can say that there are too many breeders in my part od the world that don't have a clue what is a good rottweiler and even though they talk so much that they would easily become rich if they were paid per word they will never know nor be able to recognize a good dog.

Frank..super, SUPER post. You really hit the nail on the head in everything you said.

Hi Steve,

To answer what I think your asking, of coarse, the traits that define a Rotti are the same traits needed in Police and Military work. These agencies look for dogs with traits that fit there individual programs. Unfortunately, the rotti hasn't fit into that criteria in a long time except for a very few exceptions. As I said in the last post, since the breed has come to this Country breeders have choose to ignore the value of the breeds working temperament. There is no better example of that then the fact these agencies have no use for a rotti anymore, tho they did at one time. The traits, characteristics needed to fit into these programs have been remove by decades of breeding with no value toward true working temperament. So if what your suggesting is true, and breeders cave in to social pressure, there should be a few if not many breeders breeding specifically to the needs of these agencies. But that's not the case, not even one. Instead what has happened, breeders found out if they wanted to sell puppies they needed to glorify there breeding's with fancy words like "Champion", "AKC Pedigree", "German parents" or "Imports" and then list all the show wins or "this is a working litter" because one of the parents have a working title????? They also realized if they wanted to continue to breed they needed a market for all of the puppies that weren't so pretty.... pets. Every breeders biggest market is pet owners. What breeders are doing here is breeding pretty pets with little to no practical propose.... and it's been happening for a long time.

IPO, Ring and the other bite sports all have a connection with Police and Military work. While the training is very different the traits and character of the dogs are very much the same.

Nice post Frank ! I try my best to see all sides of the story and when someone says something that sounds reasonable I like to give credit where it is due.

Posts like that should be posted on other Rottweiler forums as well as here. For the most part the people on this forum are not AKC CKC people and so the good info that is posted just never gets to the people who should read it. I don't think that the majority of people on this forum are looking for a couch potato type dog but I believe that a true hard working dog isn't exactly what they are striving for either. There is a middle ground and as long as there is I don't think the dogs will be ruined totally. There are still good dogs here ! Two examples that I think of right now are Rommel von z-max and Godzilla vom Wesburg. Both dogs sold as PETS but both able to obtain a working title. There are PLENTY of those types of dogs around but a really big lack of trainers / working people who are willing to work with them.

Hi Frank,

Beside temperment, isn't there physical traits that pretty much knock our rottweiler out of the criteria required by these agencies today ?

(1) Our Rottweilers typical draft type body style makes him slower with less stamina and less agile than malinios and shepherds

(2) He is slower maturing (so they have to be older before serious training begins) and he has a less long utility life (length in years he can be in service for these agencies) than malinois & Shepherds

(3) His black coat, thicker body ( Less surface to body mass ratio) and shorter muzzle makes him less heat tolerant than malinois and shepherds.

(4) The extreme in biting power some Rottweilers possess being considered over the top in subdueing a person.

(5) On average, Rottweilers do not transfer from one handler to another as easily as shepherds and malinois

Just for the physical reasons mentioned above, our rottweiler no longer fit these agencies current needs.

It isn't so much as the changing of our Rottweiler (and I agree our breed has changed) which has stopped these agencies from wanting Rottweilers, but the evolution in the job of being a police or military dog and in the criteria needed to fill those requirements. In the beginning, a police dog was pretty much a snarling dog on the end of the lead. Todays police dogs place more people behind bars with its nose than he does through biting. To put simply, the requirements of Police and Military dogs have changed.

Actually, for just these reason alone, it is simply more cost effective for these agencies to eliminate the rottweiler from consideration.

The law of supply & demand:
When there isn't a demand, it makes no sense to stock pile a supply.

As you said, every breeders biggest market is pet owners. This includes the working priority breeders.

What happens to these strong tempered puppies that have disqualifying faults? Do you keep them? What about the ones with enough dysplasia making them unsuitable to be a sports dog? They have no place in your breeding program. The agencies mentioned don't want them. There are only so many experienced working homes that can handle a dog like that. Do they go to pet homes?

There is a reason why our Rottweiler is no longer bred for his drover and draft capabilities. It is because society no longer needs or desires him to perform those functions. Society did at one time, but those needs have changed and as a result, so did and has our Rottweiler.


Behavior / Temperament
Good natured, placid in basic disposition and fond of children, very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behaviour self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness



Steve

Most dogs that serve on the force don't make it to a second handler. Some handlers think the stress is a proponent in the cancer that many serving dogs get shut down by. We still have rottweilers on our k9 unit here.

As for black coats nearly *all* of the shepherds serving here are black dogs. Of course agilility and the rest still come into play but working down here in the heat any of my dogs could go toe to toe in terms of endurance with the other black dogs.

The *main* issue is that there are less and less spots for patrol dogs, at least in America. With the sue happy public and laws that let them do it An actual bite can lead to more stress for a k9 unit than it's worth.

Behavior / Temperament

Good natured, placid in basic disposition and fond of children, very devoted, obedient, biddable and eager to work. His appearance is natural and rustic, his behaviour self assured, steady and fearless. He reacts to his surroundings with great alertness.

GOOD NATURED [good-ney-cherd]
–adjective - having or showing a pleasant, kindly disposition; amiable: a warm, good-natured person.
—Synonyms agreeable, willing, cheerful, equable.

PLACID [plas-id]
–adjective - pleasantly calm or peaceful; unruffled; tranquil; serenely quiet or undisturbed: placid waters.

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When we move away from what the BREED STANDARD SPECIFIES, then we are in uncharted waters.

NO WHERE in the breed standard of the Rottweiler does it say anything about it being a one person dog who cannot mingle in public.

Where did biting hard and being so sharp as to be unapproachable become part of the breed standard?

I agree whole heartedly with Ann Felske Jackman's comments.

Before I even continue discussing about working ability... How many of you in the debate who are breeders have IPO-3 dogs that you titled yourself?

Hi Steve,

All the reasons you pointed out are pretty much the standard answers as to why the Rotti isn't suited for Police and Military anymore. And, I think for the most part, there correct but why? Could it be because Police dept's across the Country and Military only saw and had mediocre dogs? Supply & demand.. right? At the time when the breed was still being used, these agencies got there dogs from breeders right here. The same breeders that were chasing Championships because that's were the money was/is. The same breeders that put little to no value in the breeds working temperament.

One point I have to disagree with, which I feel I have a good sense about, I bred the youngest dog to ever be K-9 certified in New York's history and she was a female. The propose and duty of today's K-9 has changed very little in the last 20 years. The only real change is a much stronger empathises on drug detection and there are more dogs involved.. more agencies... Customs/Boarder Patrol, DEA, Homeland security. Cops want one thing above all, a reliable K-9 partner that has the drive and courage to put itself before its handler.

The truth is the issues you pointed out can and do apply to every breed used in these programs. There are very large & black Gsd's there are black Mal's, black Labs. The difference that makes these issues pointless is if the dog has a very high desire to work... The Rottweiler today has an image it can't work, not only with these agencies but amongst many trainers in most bite sports. They have that image in large part because for years the gate keepers.... breeders didn't put the same thoughtful planning in the breeds workability as it did when it came to the improvement of conformation.

Hi Steve,

I have a couple questions for you.

How long have you been breeding now? How many Champions have you produced? What improvements have you made in your breeding program from when you started? How many dogs have you titled in SchH - IPO and to what level? How many dogs have you bred that earned a working title or K-9 certified?

Thanks!

Frank, is this the best you can do?

If you Can't Attack the Message, Attack the Messenger!

We have bred dogs who have achieved Schutzhund titles and we even had one that was an officer for the Metro- Dade Police Department.

But, that is not what this topic was about!

Why you deemed it necessary to move to a more personal line of questioning is beyond me. Especially, when the answers to those questions have no bearing on this topic!


This is a good example why serious discussions regarding most serious subjects on Rottweiler forums can't be done.


I'm not playing this game with you!


Steve